Arguments against Counts-As usually go something like this: It unfairly benefits marine players because he has half a dozen books to choose from, but the poor orks or bugs player only has one book and he's stuck with it. Counts as lets the marine player crush his enemies by playing flavor of the month bull shit from online, but his friends can't come to the party. Besides that it makes a mockery of the fluff to have berserkers, for instnace, running around pretending to be blood angels. If you're a berserker player, play berserker rules. That's the way it was meant to be.
Ok a couple things...
First I agree with the feeling and I much prefer to play an army where the fluff, rules and models all sync together. The problem is there are alot of smart people out there playing new and obviously more powerful books. If I don't want to set myself up to lose against them, I've got to play one of the newer and more powerful books myself. You dont bring a knife to a gun fight, and you dont play chaos verse blood angels. Simple as that.
Second it's not just marine players who can do this. If you want to play your shootaboyz as guardsmen, your truks as chimeras, or your nobz as ogryns, whose going to stop you? Not me. If it's fair for me it's fair for you, so there's no reason to complain here either. As long the substitutions are clearly modelled and obvious to you and your opponent, there shouldn't be a problem.
Third I shouldn't be forced to choose between playing my best game and spending money I don't have. None of us should. Counts-as is a quick and easy way to maintain play balance across a variety of books that have obvious and widely different power levels. Disallowing it basically hands the advantage to the guy with the most money to spend, because he can do all the codex hopping he wants, but the rest of us have to play the same book year after year. This should be a game of skill and luck, not of competitive splurging.
Fourth alot of competitive lists already make a mockery of the fluff. The lash-plague-oblit list is a pretty obvious example of that. Competitive lists are going to ignore the fluff one way or another, and counts-as really doesn't have anything to do with it.
Fifth counts as is not proxying. Counts-as is an opportunity to do some creative modelling; proxying is just taking some random object and calling it a rhino or a demon prince or whatever. A counts-as model should reflect the rules its supposed to represent, so everything is clear to the opponent. That's just being corteous. Proxying is a great way to playtest stuff you're not sure about, but it's no way to play a casual game.
I love counts as for alot of reasons. It helps me to play my best game and experiment with different rule sets, it allows me to keep up with the environment without spending a truckload of money, and it gives me the opportunity to do some creative modelling and have some fun with the background. I really think it should be an opportunity for everyone, not a drag! Let's all get used to this new development in the 40k environment and make the most of it! Because, until that blessed day when GW drops the codex system and gets serious about play balance, it's definitely here to stay.
Agree? Disagree? Want to troll the site? Speak your mind!
Ok a couple things...
First I agree with the feeling and I much prefer to play an army where the fluff, rules and models all sync together. The problem is there are alot of smart people out there playing new and obviously more powerful books. If I don't want to set myself up to lose against them, I've got to play one of the newer and more powerful books myself. You dont bring a knife to a gun fight, and you dont play chaos verse blood angels. Simple as that.
Second it's not just marine players who can do this. If you want to play your shootaboyz as guardsmen, your truks as chimeras, or your nobz as ogryns, whose going to stop you? Not me. If it's fair for me it's fair for you, so there's no reason to complain here either. As long the substitutions are clearly modelled and obvious to you and your opponent, there shouldn't be a problem.
Third I shouldn't be forced to choose between playing my best game and spending money I don't have. None of us should. Counts-as is a quick and easy way to maintain play balance across a variety of books that have obvious and widely different power levels. Disallowing it basically hands the advantage to the guy with the most money to spend, because he can do all the codex hopping he wants, but the rest of us have to play the same book year after year. This should be a game of skill and luck, not of competitive splurging.
Fourth alot of competitive lists already make a mockery of the fluff. The lash-plague-oblit list is a pretty obvious example of that. Competitive lists are going to ignore the fluff one way or another, and counts-as really doesn't have anything to do with it.
Fifth counts as is not proxying. Counts-as is an opportunity to do some creative modelling; proxying is just taking some random object and calling it a rhino or a demon prince or whatever. A counts-as model should reflect the rules its supposed to represent, so everything is clear to the opponent. That's just being corteous. Proxying is a great way to playtest stuff you're not sure about, but it's no way to play a casual game.
I love counts as for alot of reasons. It helps me to play my best game and experiment with different rule sets, it allows me to keep up with the environment without spending a truckload of money, and it gives me the opportunity to do some creative modelling and have some fun with the background. I really think it should be an opportunity for everyone, not a drag! Let's all get used to this new development in the 40k environment and make the most of it! Because, until that blessed day when GW drops the codex system and gets serious about play balance, it's definitely here to stay.
Agree? Disagree? Want to troll the site? Speak your mind!
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